Introducing... the Triangle!

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by vivafringe, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    This is meant to directly precede the character section. If you have any more general tips for any of these styles, let me know!

    Introducing... the Triangle!

    There are currently 20 characters in PS. That is a ton! It can be downright intimidating to figure out what each character even wants to do, let alone the nuances of every single matchup. As a result, Puzzle Strike players organize characters based on three categories. They are: Rushdown, Defense, and Economy (often shortened to Econ). However, characters often do not fall neatly into one category, and fall more along a spectrum than anything else. Here’s a fancy triangle:

    [​IMG]

    Rushdown wants to end the game as quickly as possible. Its aim is to crash uncounterable 4’s, minimize countercrashes, and use aggressive chips to speed up the pace of the game.

    Defense wants to prolong the game as long as possible. Its aim is to crash and countercrash as much as possible, and use defensive chips to slow the pace of the game.

    Economy wants to invest in the future. Its aim is to assume that the game will not end any time soon, and to make sure it has the most powerful bag of chips possible when things finally get to the endgame.

    As a general rule, Rushdown beats Economy, because it ends the game before Economy’s long term plans come to fruition. Defense beats Rushdown, because Rushdown’s single-minded plans to end the game will result in a poor bag of chips if Defense is able to drag the game out. Finally, Economy beats Defense, because Defense’s focus on surviving as long as possible will result in a poorer endgame deck.

    What this means is:

    - If your opponent is strong in economy, you should be trying to rushdown!
    - If your opponent is strong in rushdown, you should be trying to defend!
    - If your opponent is strong in defense, you should be trying to “econ!”

    Note that characters all inherently have different abilities when it comes to the three categories. These are each graphed on the character’s page. What is important to remember, however, is that these reflect the character’s starting strengths only. Positions on the triangle are NOT static, and change with each buy. In fact, blindly pursuing a particular style just because your character is inherently good at it is often a huge mistake. The style you choose to pursue should not depend just on your character's initial position, but his position relative to your opponent's character. Here are some examples:

    - Troq is fighting against Jaina. Troq is primarily an econ character, while Jaina is a rushdown character (that means to start out, Jaina has the advantage). Troq buys a Safe Keeping, which increases his defense at the expense of economy. This better positions Troq against Jaina’s savage rushdown playstyle!

    - Onimaru is fighting against Troq. Onimaru is a very strong defensive character, which means that Troq will win if the game goes late. As a result, Onimaru buys Sneak Attack, a rushdown chip that has little defensive value. This better positions Onimaru against Troq’s crazy economy!

    - Jaina is fighting Jaina. This is an aggressive showdown that will probably not go to late game, and short term aggressive and defensive chips are probably the way to go! However, the first player has a 5-buy and decides to buy a 3-gem. Uh oh! He has invested in the long game, and will now be under a lot of pressure if his opponent correctly tries to rush him down.

    Tips for proper rushdown:

    1. Increase the gems in all gem piles

    Most people intuit that adding gems into your opponent’s gempile is a good rushdown tactic. For instance, Sneak Attack, a simple move that ante’s a [1] into your opponent’s gem pile, is good because it speeds up the game. What is not so obvious, however, is that adding gems into your own gempile (for instance, with Risk to Riskonade) can be even more effective. Both have the effect of rapidly speeding up the pace of the game, and shorten your opponent's time to reach his endgame deck.

    2. Don’t Let them countercrash

    This is almost a universal rule of proper rushdown: keep their countercrashes to a minimum. Just as anteing 1-gems into your pile or your opponent’s speeds up the game, removing 1-gems from the game slows it down. The more this happens, the more the defensive character is favored.

    If you are a strong rushdown character, the only real reason to ever crash at an opponent in the early game is because you need the money. If you don’t need the money, it’s better to just not crash than risk a countercrash.

    3. Buy lots of combines.

    A corollary to “don’t let them countercrash” is “crash 4’s to kill them.” How do you crash 4’s? You buy combines (or combine effects, like One True Style/Mixmaster), of course.

    A lot of people think that playing aggro means crashing as much as possible. Actually, the defensive character should be crashing (and countercrashing) as much as possible. Aggressive players only need to crash once or twice: with massive uncounterable 4-gems.

    You don’t get to crash 4 at them if you don’t combine, however. As such, you should be buying a ton of combines. Yes, it will hurt your economy, but you don’t need to care about that if they fall over dead after a single massive crash.

    4. Wait to Crash

    This is related to, but not completely the same as “minimize their countercrashes.” It’s often tempting to crash a 3-gem at someone to “keep up the pressure.” Unless you are sure this will kill them, don’t do this! It’s usually better to wait for one more combine to have an uncounterable crash. Again, if you are sure it’s lethal, or if you are going to die if you don’t crash it, go ahead. But for the most part, treat 2-gems and 3-gems as precious crops that aren’t ready to be harvested.

    This actually goes a step further: it's possible to even crash a 4-gem too early! For instance, someone might use their regular Crash Gem to crash a 4, even though they are drawing Jaina’s Unstable Power and combines later in the cycle. Most of the time you are far better off using the Unstable Power for a monster double-crash.

    Remember, the longer you wait to crash, the more your opponent has to ante before you finally rock him out. If you’re not going to die, just wait patiently and combine some more. Often your uncounterable crash will be lethal when a regular crash wouldn’t have worked.

    5. Recognize When You Can Win NOW

    As an aggro player, often a single turn is the difference between winning and losing. As a result, it is crucial to recognize situations when you can win immediately. Give your opponent an extra turn, and he may use it to stabilize and crush you with his superior endgame deck.

    A common example is when you can crash for lethal, and all of their crashes are in their discard (you ARE keeping track of their discard, aren't you?). While you should instinctively prefer waiting to crash until you can combine a 4-gem, it's OK to crash a 2-gem if it kills them!

    Here is another slightly more complicated example: your opponent is at 9 pile (all 1-gems), and you have a 2-gem in your pile and a Crash Gem in your hand. You know he has exactly 1 Crash Gem (the only one in his deck), and also some Combines (you don't know how many). Do you crash here?

    Of course you do! If you crash your 2-gem, he can countercrash. However, that will leave him at 9 pile, and the ante will kill him next turn! On the other hand, if you don't crash, he will be able to combine an untold number of times before he crashes. Give yourself a chance to win here! No matter what, he is not countercrashing, and maybe he didn't draw enough combines to live.

    There are some caveats: Safe Keeping, Ebb or Flow, X-Copy, and Double Crash Gems can seriously mess up your math when you are trying to crash for lethal. Pay extra attention to these pile control chips before you commit to going for the win.

    Tips for Proper Economy!

    1. Buy gems only in the early game!

    This should go without saying, but the best way to kick-start an early economy is usually to buy money! What is not obvious, however, is how quickly gems become poor purchases, even for someone playing entirely for the late game.

    Remember: your goal is to make the most powerful endgame deck possible. A deck with all money and nothing else is a terrible endgame deck; in fact, even a starting deck could probably beat it!

    That said, figuring out exactly how much money you should buy can be difficult. One thing that you should be thinking about is what you want your max money to be. If the most expensive chip in the pool costs 4, you might already have all of the money you will ever need! On the other hand, if you are playing to buy the almighty Master Puzzler, you will need to buy a lot of money to ever have a hope of getting to 12.

    2. Buy cyclers in the mid game!

    After buying money, your money density often gets to the point where it is almost as profitable to buy a cycler like Roundhouse as it is to put more money in your deck. At this stage, you should switch completely to cyclers, because they will be much more useful in the late game. For now they are a way to get more money, but later on they will dig for your suddenly important Double Crash Gems and combines.

    3. Buy Double Crash Gems, not combines

    Your combine count should be the bare minimum you need to stay alive; remember, you are not trying to kill them early; you are trying to play for an inevitable late game, and Combines slow down big purchases by a lot. A good general rule of thumb is that if your opponent buys 2 combines, you should try buying 1. As long as you are buying enough to stay alive, you should eventually have the advantage as your economy begins to dominate his.

    On the other hand, Double Crash Gems are almost always excellent buys for an aspiring econ player. Not only do they give 2$, but the incredible crashing and countercrashing power lets them “catch up” to a player that was focusing more on the early game. It’s hard to have too many of these, particularly if there are forks in the bank.

    4. Know when to switch to defense!

    At some point in time, you need to decide to pull the trigger and stop the econ. This not only means no more money, but also no more cyclers! In the late game, a chip like One of Each is almost a zero-value buy; your purple density is much more important, and most of the time, the best way to increase that is to simply buy more purples!

    This means that even Combines, which you were desperately trying to avoid in the early and mid game, become fantastic buys. Remember that nearly every deck is going to want combines eventually; an econ deck simply wants them later than everyone else.

    5. Explore alternate paths to "econ"

    The main econ strategy is to buy money, then cyclers, then Double Crash Gems, then Combines. However, this is not the only way to have a superior endgame deck.

    One powerful alternative is the slim deck. The goal of this deck is to get an extremely thin, consistent deck that can combine three times per turn. The main ways to do this are Degenerate Trasher, Gem Essence, and DeGrey's No More Lies. Slim decks (particularly when they have a Double Crash Gem) are one of the most powerful decks in the game, and should not be underestimated.

    Other powerful econ endgame strategies are Improvisation chains (with all of your 1-gems trashed or upgraded), and getting a ton of money to rush to the nearly unstoppable Master Puzzler. Even a deck with some Double Crash Gems and X-Copy's can be hard to beat.

    Tips for proper defense!

    1. Watch their pile!

    A common mistake across all strategic games is to pay too much attention to what is happening to you, and too little attention to what is happening across the table. Beginners often foolishly feel safe with low pile, but if your opponent is Jaina and is sitting with two 4’s in her pile, you might actually be in huge trouble!

    In defense mode, you should treat every opposing Combine as if it were a Sneak Attack that added to your pile. If you are at 6 and your opponent has a 4-gem, you are actually dangerously close to death. On the other hand, if you are at 9 and your opponent has no combined gems and few Combines in his deck, you might actually be safe enough to keep boosting your economy!

    2. Buy more crash gems than usual.

    Remember that in rushdown mode, you are supposed to minimize the amount of countercrashes that your opponent gets to make. Of course, the opposite is true when you are in defense mode; the more countercrashes you make, the better chance you have to win.

    The way to do this is to buy lots of crashes. You don’t care much if your opponent countercrashes (unless they can countercrash a 4 for lethal), so oftentimes, a crash is like a combine that gives you money instead of taking it away.

    Of course, you shouldn't go overboard. There is almost always a limit to the amount of crashes you can play in one turn, and so as always you should manage the amount of enders in your deck. Nonetheless, whereas crash gems are often useless for a rushdown or econ player, there is nothing bad about crashes in a defensive player's deck. This is why the chip “Iron Defense” is so aptly named!

    3. Buy combines, too

    As a defensive player, if you can weather the storm of uncounterable crashes from the rushdown player, you will be victorious. As a result, even though it is painful to sacrifice economy for Combines, you should be buying just as many as your rushdown opponent. As it turns out, Combine is an excellent offensive AND defensive tool, as, ignoring money, it acts as a linker crash. Again, there is a limit to how many crashes you can play in a turn. Once you hit that limit, combines should be there to step in.

    4. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense

    A counterintuitive part of puzzle strike is that often a red chip can be even more defensive than a blue chip! Disruption works in every way; it prevents your opponent from defending, attacking and building econ. A chip like Color Panic can be used to knock out your opponents Crash Gem while they are at 10, but it can also be used to prevent your opponent from crashing a 4 at you. The chip can even knock out other Color Panics! All wound givers and discard chips are not just “red”; they are secretly blue and even green as well.

    5. Learn from your mistakes

    You go for an economy strategy vs. Midori, and seem to be doing very well. However, the surprising power of his Dragon Form overwhelms you, and you die just before you can stabilize with the purples you bought this cycle. Bummer, right?

    No! This is actually excellent data that you should use next time you fight Midori. You should make a mental note that in order to survive, you should be buying purples and switching to defense one cycle earlier than you did this time. This is one of the reasons that playing Econ can quickly yield great results as a new player. If you lose playing aggro, it can be tough to say what you did wrong. But if you die to a rush playing Economy, the answer is usually that you should have switched to defense sooner!

    With that out of the way...

    Let’s get to the characters!
     
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  2. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    Thank you! This is exactly the kind of a basic guide I've been looking for.
     
  3. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Alright, edits are mostly done.

    Again, if you have additional general tips that could fall in one of these categories, please post them here! Additionally, it is sort of an open question whether Rushdown, Defense, and Economy should be color coded the entire way through, just at the beginning, or not at all. So input on that would be appreciated.
     
  4. Sun Bro

    Sun Bro Member

    I'd color code them the whole way through. It is convenient for the player and consistent to Sirlin's other games.
     
  5. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Well, it's not a hard concept to figure out, but you could add arrows to highlight what beats what in the actual graphic. Sort of like Yomi does currently with
    [​IMG]

    that.
     
  6. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, there will be fancy arrows eventually. It's just that whatever I do will look like crap and not make the final version anyway (gogo MSPAINT), so eh.

    If someone wants to try their hand at making a fancy version of this triangle, I'd much appreciate it though!
     
  7. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I mentioned it under Rabid's Troq guide as well, but now I'm wondering if I remembered correctly: Is jargon okay in the guides or no? You mention purple density under Econ bullet 4.

    Rushdown #2: I'd add that the fastest way to prevent countercrashing is to make sure they don't have a purple shields in hand (by checking their discard for Crash/Rock Wall/etc). This serves as a way to crash with certainty even when you don't have a 4 gem yet. Seems obvious, but also the sort of thing a novice could easily overlook.

    Rushdown: Maybe also include that crashing to 9 is just as good as crashing to 10 if they have no way of clearing their pile.
     
  8. Jude

    Jude Active Member

    Is that first sentence supposed to be "Of course, you can go overboard"? Or am I just reading it wrong.

    Definitely a helpful guide for people learning the game though.
     
  9. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    "can't" is meant in the connotation of "Of course, you shouldn't go overboard." But maybe I'll just change it to shouldn't.
     
  10. Jude

    Jude Active Member

    What is the best approach in a disruption heavy bank? If you can tell on the first turn that your opponent is going to be making you discard a lot of chips, and there are no blues in the pool, is the best approach to just do it back to them?

    I played a handful of games against Kai's Gwen the other night. Several of the banks were red heavy and the matches were pretty ugly. Even if I was able to play an equally good disruption game, he still way out econed me. I feel like maybe the best move was to buy more purples, but I don't know.

    So I guess as a more general question how do you use Econ to beat Defense if reds are a good defense?
     
  11. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Purples (defense) beat Reds (attack)

    Unless he trashes all your Combines with Ouch and then steals your purples with SP, then yea I don't know what to do then.

    One thing I recently learned myself is that typically in a red heavy bank (if someone or both people buy Ouch! first turn), you want to IMMEDIATELY start keeping your pile as close to 0 as possible, like countercrash on turn2 etc. where you normally wouldn't for pile height.
     
  12. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Gwen/Lum spamming color panic beat purple strats all day, I think. I think you pretty much just have to buy as many Color Panics as possible so they can't play 3x in a turn.
     
  13. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Yeah. My experience is that in big disruption fights, pile control is king. When I do my crazy BaG/Improv/Really Annoying wound-fest with Oni, I've noticed that I absolutely need a second crash as soon as possible or my wounding won't have enough effect to prevent my dying before their deck turns to pudding.
     
  14. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    OK, I added one more point for each category. As usual, letting me know about feedback/typos is appreciated!
     
  15. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    i think you mentioned this already but not sure.....? Are you planning on adding arrows of some sort to the triangle? At least for me, natural progression is to go clockwise which would indicate that rushdown beats defense and so on.

    Btw i love this quick glance type thing on the char!
     
  16. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Sleb triangle variant. I changed the "win" order to be clockwise, as somebody suggested.

    SlebTriangle (halfsize).png SlebTriangle (quartersize).png

    The full sized version won't load for some reason. Maybe size limit? If anyone wants it, let me know.

    Edit: Just realized this was my 100th post. Not a bad way to hit the milestone. ^_^
     
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  17. IcyAirs

    IcyAirs Member

    Would Red for defense and Purple for Rushdown make more sense? or was Red and Blue chosen specifically cause of purple intersection? Just running off the idea that most red chips are defensive.
     
  18. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I'm assuming you meant that most red chips are offensive. That said, I'm pretty confident that yes, that was why the colors were chosen. The correlations felts pretty obvious to me: Red is for red fists, Blue is for blue shields, Green is for gems/$$.
     
  19. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    The little pictures around the outside are nice, but it took me a little while to figure out what they were trying to indicate (i.e. Arg is defense, Jaina is Rush, and Setsuki is econ). I'm almost certain that most casual players will have no idea what's going there.
     
  20. Jude

    Jude Active Member

    The colored Slebs are great. A lot more fun to look at than arrows, but like Apollo said, a little more notation would probably be helpful for people who don't initially know that Jaina is rushdown etc.

    Also what I think IcyAirs was trying to say was that Rushdown should be purple since it's strategy is to buy more purples, not red disruption. The same with defense. Playing defense doesn't mean you buy a lot of blues (point 4 under Defense says to buy a lot of reds).
     
  21. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Yeah, I do think it wasn't quite transparent enough.

    Depending on how it's used, I figured it might not need clarification. If it's going in the General Strategy section, the whole concept gets explained in detail already. If we do end up needing text directly on the image itself, that's easily doable as well.
     
  22. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Sorry, Delha, but I don't like your triangle variant for three reasons: The circle looks crowded with all the little fighters on it, it isn't immediately clear (especially for newer players) what the fighters symbolize and those fighters are the grown up versions of the characters (while Puzzle Strike uses the chibi versions). I think arrows (maybe with fist heads, as somebody proposed) would be clearer.
     
  23. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    i threw this together and tried to add some text that looked pretty good but the program i have just was too limited (or i am too limited, ha). Anyway....


    tri.png
     
  24. matt.lashof

    matt.lashof Well-Known Member

    yeah, I think they look awesome, but in the end, don't actually contribute anything to the clarity.
     
  25. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    The main idea behind this version was to look pretty, so I'd appreciate more feedback focused on that as well. If other people agree it's too crowded, I want to hear about it (and suggestions on how to fix the issue).

    Some notes:
    • Planning to add more text for clarity.
    • I do wish I could have used the chibi versions, but there just aren't any images of them tossing Sleb around.
    • I think this will go well on the page explaining Rush>Econ>Def, but recommend against using it for the character guides. The simpler "triangle + character" is cleaner and preferable there, IMO.
    • Green sleb retained more detail than the other two. Is it noticeable?
    • The curves/arrows don't actually line up exactly right. Is it noticeable?
    • Setsuki got more colored highlight than the other two. Is it noticeable?
    • The font used was Copperplate MT, I think. Pretty sure that's not free, so recommended alternatives are welcome. I had a couple that might work, but didn't get around to testing yet.
    • Colors on the triangle might be a bit dark. Should they be brighter?
    • Planning to work in real arrows instead of just curved bands.
     
  26. IcyAirs

    IcyAirs Member

    I definately meant what I said about red being defensive, but that may no longer be as true given all the new chips/changes to old chips. Before, only Sneak Attack really progressed the game, while now, plenty of chips from Knockdown to Ouch have rushdown potential.

    Just some food for thought.
     
  27. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    New version:
    Added clarification text.
    Green sleb revised.
    Cleaned out some white space on Jaina and Arg.
    Font changed to Fertigo Pro
    New "motion streams" instead of curved bands


    Plain Triangle also attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  28. matt.lashof

    matt.lashof Well-Known Member

    I really like the SlebTriangle v2, only one suggestion. I think Jaina might look better if she were mirrored. You'd have to check, but the way the motion blur goes it seems like that may be better.

    You could probably also put the "X beats Y" text between the triangle and the motion blurs, I don't know if that would look better though.
     
  29. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    The new triangle is definitely clearer. Both due to the text and due to the placement of the characters on the wider side of the "arrows", near their "victim strategy". I would like to see the text between the triangle and the motion blurs, too. I think that would be better, because the small white text would be more central and less drifting towards the outer blackness.

    All in all, great work. However, the characters not being chibi - like every other depiction of them in Puzzle Strike - makes me sceptical that this triangle will be used in official PS material.
     
  30. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Good call on flipping Jaina, I agree that should look better. I'll also look into fitting the helper text into the gaps.

    Something else I wanted input on... I'm thinking of changing the template to "X is strong against Y". I originally had the archetypes listed in their matching colors, but it looked weird, since it was just one word in each color. This gives us more filler words to establish white as a default color so the archetype colors stand out. Also, it resolves a minor nitpick that was sticking in the back of my head; It makes the statement more accurate by replacing the absolute promise of victory with a description of strategic potential.
     
  31. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Next version.

    Not sure I'm happy with it.
     

    Attached Files:

  32. matt.lashof

    matt.lashof Well-Known Member

    If you are unhappy with that, you could try putting the
    "Rushdown is strong
    against Economy"
    on 3 lines instead of two, which allows you to move the swooshes closer to the triangle
    like:
    "Rushdown
    is strong against
    Economy"
    Ditto "Defense > Rushdown"

    Probably want to leave "Econ > Defense" alone.
     
  33. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Could you align the text with the sides of the triangle (while keeping it between the triangle and the arrow blurs)? I think that would look better.
     
  34. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    TBH, my biggest complaint with the last version is that the images themselves prevent the "arrows" from being consistently aligned. For example, the image of Sets is tall enough that the increased gap between the arrow and triangle is highly apparent.

    Aligning the text should be totally doable, yeah.
     
  35. matt.lashof

    matt.lashof Well-Known Member

    You could just shrink her...
     
  36. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I might have to. I'd purposely tried to keep all three characters about the same size before, but yeah... I think I'll just have to accept that symmetry has to break somewhere. Character size is probably the better place to make that happen, since variances in arrow layout stand out more.
     
  37. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    I thought I'd take a stab at the Triangle based off Delha's awesome work. I was thinking that the shape of the triangle itself should mimic the cut of the Gems in the game. I also tried using 3D-ish arrows instead of a glowy arc. Lemme know what you think!

    [​IMG]
     
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  38. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Whoa. Extremely good graphic. The green zone should be a bit bigger, otherwise great.

    Maybe you can give the source files at some point in layers, and we could use it in the real guide if that's ok.
     
  39. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Thanks Sirlin! I'm happy to provide a .psd of everything once we've settled in on a look.
    Here's an update with better color balance:
    [​IMG]

    Also, I was thinking that on the page of the guide that explains the triangle and the fundamental strategies of each section, you could put this triangle image populated with the 20 characters.
    (Note: some of the chips aren't in the perfect spot due to squeezing everyone in, but let me know if I made any mistakes, or if there's a better arangement).
    [​IMG]

    Then, on each character's individual page, you could use a smaller triangle image, with just the chip of said character, like so:
    (Note: although this triangle looks larger when posted in this thread, it can be shrunk down to a smaller size in the guide and still be legible)

    [​IMG]
     
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  40. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    I rate these pictures 'A' for Amazing
     
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  41. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Wow. I never thought I was great in the first place, but you are clearly way way better at this than I am. Glad I had any part of motivating you into creating these, they absolutely rock.

    I also think the Full Character Triangle thing is awesome. I'd swap a few of the placements you've got, but totally love the idea.
     
  42. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I don't really have much new to say, but it really is such great quality work that I'll just say that again. I assumed I'd have to redo this triangle thing myself to look good, but your version totally nails it. Seems done probably. Though would the border around the character circles be better without the black and white stuff? It seems to be evoking poker chips kind of but not really (more beveled than poker chips and not a thick enough border to be poker chips...why would they be poker chips in the first place though lol).

    That said, I'm fine with it as you have it. Larger green area looks better. Oh and it's good that it's RGB to use on the web, though I hope it turns out ok when I convert to CMYK for printing. I have always had trouble with greens in CMYK printing, the reason being because I don't know what I'm doing.
     
  43. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    These look great!!
    As mentioned, there are a few chars in the 20 char triangle that could stand some moving. Grave in particular seems more econ than his current placement.

    Does it matter that this uses the standard Yomi Art but PS uses the chibi art? Also, even if it's not 100% accurate, would it make sense to move Setsuki all the way to the econ corner since she's the personification of econ?

    (Also, does anyone other than me care that Jaina has actually a pretty solid matchup against Arg just because BV has a strong anti-synergy to Hex?).

    Other than that, totally rad!
     
  44. IcyAirs

    IcyAirs Member

    Would probably be okay if the triangle with character portraits had the portraits overflow past the background triangle, to allow for more accurate placement of the characters...
     
  45. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    @Delha - Please, I welcome any suggestions for chip placement! Tell me who to swap, who needs to be nudged, etc. Of course, on the individual character's page, you can put the chip exactly where it should be; however, this should at least give a general idea of where characters fall in relation to each other.
    And yes, you were a big motivation for me to jump in. You certainly laid the ground work, I just ran with it a bit.

    @Sirlin - Regarding the borders on the character chips, I actually took a cue from the PS Logo & the original set of chips.
    [​IMG]

    Here are three variations that I just whipped up - have a preference?

    [​IMG]

    @ApolloAndy - Go ahead and shout out suggestions :D In regards to Grave, is he Econ enough to warrant switching spots with Persephone?
    When you mention the Yomi art, I assume you're just talking about the throw sprites? Unfortunately the chibi versions don't have throw sprites of their own, but I thought Delha had a great idea putting images there.
    Also, I had the exact same thought as you about shoving Setsuki in the corner since she's the visual example... I could go either way.
     
    -Y-, garcia1000 and CWheezy like this.
  46. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Seriously great work, Gecko. Those character image chips are great too, and could come in handy elsewhere in the guide.
     
  47. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    holy shit how did i miss this thread, these are amazing
     
  48. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Gloria/Suki should be swapped (Arg/Jaina are in the corners, Suki should be too, not to mention the fact Gloria has 2 reactions)
     
  49. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Totally pwnsome.

    Okay then on to the quibbling:

    I'd swap Troq and Midori - defense wise Troq does have a pretty solid lategame slimdeck when not facing attack chips, so he should be closer to the defense edge.

    There's no way that Perse ever out-econs Grave, but her disruption sure does defend better than his Reversal - they at least need to be swapped and maybe even pushed apart further than that.

    Gloria is undergoing last minute revisions - the prior Gloria probably did belong in the econ corner, the current one is nowhere near it and we don't know where the final version will end up. So right now,* any* placement is incorrect.

    After the char guide threads I'd be sorely tempted to use an oversized Zane dead center and push Val just a hair toward defense with it - but as Zane isn't the focal character I'd worry that making him visibly larger than other chars would be more misleading than funny.
     
  50. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    TBH, I got it in my head to start messing with the triangle after Jely added arrows and mentioned there that his program was too limited to do much (in a different thread).

    I'm going to call the various slots by number moving forward, I think it makes for easier reference.

    ..........01
    ........02 03
    ......04 05 06
    ....07 08 09 10
    ..11 12 13 14 15
    16 17 18 19 20 21


    Setuki - This was the thing that stood out to me most, agreed the she should get the corner.

    Midori/Troq - Agreed on switching. Midori also has solid econ for a rushdown character.

    Grave/Perse/Quince/Gloria - I think I'd put Gloria in 17, keep Perse in 18, Quince in 19, and Grave in 20.

    I think Grave should be closer to center rather than edge, since he can execute well on multiple gameplans. Not sure who he'd trade with though, need to think about it a bit more.

    One other minor suggestion - Maybe build a grid to line up the characters evenly on the pyramid? It would help prevent chips from overlapping and such.
     

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