Introducing... the Triangle!

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by vivafringe, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Sure any of those edges of the circles are ok. It's just that if it's supposed to be a poker chip thing, then the bevel wouldn't be as curved. Would be a harder edge.
  2. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    All of this sounds good. I'd actually put Menelker in 11 instead of Onimaru.
  3. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I also with went with a chip border that has less stripes, in an attempt to make it a little less busy. I think I like a couple stripes more than a solid black border. I also toned down the bevel a bit, and evened out the spacing on everything.

    Here's the update which incorporates all your placement notes:
    (I feel like I'm racking up for a game of pool :p)

    EDIT: In the written guide in the OP, Viva uses Troq as an example of an Econ character to illustrate how the triangle works. Perhaps this should be updated with a more extreme example (like Sets or Vendetta?).
  4. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    Maybe on the everyone on the map thing, make the character chips a little smaller so you can fit them more precisely?
  5. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    *twitch twitch spasm*

    But seriously, that looks amazing. :)
  6. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Same reaction here, so how would we feel about putting something neutral like a crash gem or the back of a puzzle strike chip in the empty spot?
  7. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Hahaha, I kinda felt the same way. How's this?
    EDIT: Swapped a few character positions after speaking with Aesa.
  8. two_eyes

    two_eyes Active Member

    Eh, I think filling the slot is more confusing than helpful. It can be taken as a hint at a "hidden" character, which obviously makes no sense.

    Shrinking the character images would solve two problems at once: Allows for more precise placement of the characters where they belong, and would make more blank space on the triangle, which keeps the one open spot in the current layout from sticking out like a stereotypical thing that sticks out.

    Also, this bears repeating: amazing work.

    EDIT: I also kind of wish Defense were red and Rushdown purple to better agree with the chip colors that go with the appropriate strategies, but that's a beaten horse if ever I saw one.
  9. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    I actually like the way it looks with the filled slot.
  10. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Would it be koto switch rook and the ps logo chip. That would make it look better I think.
  11. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    The gold version is not the real official version anymore, that was only for the limited edition wood first edition. The green logo should be used if anything. (Yeah some of my stuff still uses the gold one, it will be phased out).

    At first I was thinking having a logo at all was a worse idea than an empty slot. But actually, if you switch rook with it, it would look a lot better. Is it somehow unfair to what rook is to locate him there though? Or can we do that
  12. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Ooh, good call on putting the Logo chip in the middle (with the correct logo this time). As long as that doesn't shove Rook tooo far out of position of course... Once again, on each character's individual page, there can be a much more precise placement of their chip.

    If I were to make all the chips smaller and try to squeeze them together so they're a hair closer to where they should be, but still no overlapping, I think it'll look much worse than a nice organized pyramid as we've been building.
  13. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Rook seems more geared to econ than defense to me, though I'd be happy to be wrong on this.

    Any reason Gwen and Degrey were switched?
  14. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    I was talking with Aesa in chat, and he suggested that I switch Gwen & DeGrey. I know he's got a few games under his belt, so I was happy to oblige, lol.
  15. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Somehow it's even more awesome now.
    rabid_schnauzer and GeckoTH like this.
  16. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    I agree that Rook is closer to Econ than defense and that his mid placement is more accurate.

    However, I'm willing to accept the minor misrepresentation for the sake of graphical balance here.
  17. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Wow, I am away for one day and without a warning, awesomeness strikes! Amazing work, GeckoTH!

    Same here. Symmetry is a big plus, but the correct placement for Rook would be a little bit more to the right. Hm, symmetry still wins. :)
  18. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    Stick with the symmetry :) As long as he's more Defensive than Troq (and more Rushdown than Oni/Val) the graphic is correct in placing Rook there relative to others.
  19. matt.lashof

    matt.lashof Well-Known Member

    Oni is far from the Econ corner? I know that he econs differently than others (with puzzles, which is awesome!), but it seems like Oni doesn't have much rushdown at all, and is actually more Def/Econ than Def/Rush.

    Someone tell me why I'm wrong :)
  20. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Lots of people have said it already, but probably won't hurt for me to repeat that these pictures are amazing.

    I think Troq is much more econ than almost anyone. If Quince, Lum, Gwen, Zane, or Grave try to out econ Troq, for instance, they probably lose. So he is in a really weird spot and should definitely be in slot 15 (with Gwen and Degrey moving up to make room). Otherwise I can't see a way to improve the positions. Argagarg is misplaced but it makes sense to put him there because he's on the defense arrow.
  21. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    +1 for this is amazing the most greatest picture triangle diagram
  22. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Yea I think that was my suggestion, heh. I also agree with viva on Troq, however rabid's Troq guide here lists "Strong Rush" as the very first thing under the "Troq's Strength" header, so really there isn't ever going to be 100% agreement between even 2 people, so I'm pretty happy with it however.

    DeGrey really doesn't have any rush at all though does he? Pilebunker is a defensive chip, NML sets him up for good lategame, whereas Gwen can fork into a red arrow and obviously has Shadow Plague which makes her want to avoid lategame. Anyway, like I said it can't 100% satisfy everyone so ya if you feel very strongly otherwise I won't object to a switch-back.
  23. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    This is why I kinda dislike classification. They are quite subjective (maybe better to say inter-subjective).

    Can't you just enjoy the finely made diagram :/
  24. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    I would assume that Pilebunker is more "screw with enemy econ so I count as rushdown" rather than "screw with rushdown so I count as defense" ; you're more likely to see juicy 3gems on Econ, and Pilebunker doesn't do much against Unstable Power, Combine, Sneak Attack...although it's decent against Rook's Big Rocks and "Master of Twos" Midori, to make it slightly harder for them to buy combines/crashes... *shrug* Pilebunker hurts their current and future buys, which usually matters more to an enemy who plans on making a lot of big late buys (delaying their first 4gem/roundhouse can delay all future buys) than it does to an enemy who expects to end the game early ("meh, lost my 2 gem; *combine combine crash*").

    The rest of the character may or may not be rushdown (depends a bit on what reds the bank has, and who you're fighting), but Pilebunker looks more anti-econ than anything else, which is what Rushdown is supposed to be strong against. That said, it's a little similar to some "defensive" wounds/discard reds, so maybe it does hurt rushdown more? *shrug again*
    Star Slayer likes this.
  25. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Oni can be a little rushdowny because he's so good at using Riskonade and pretty good at using combinatorics and the other rushy reds (definitely ouch!, Jabs, Sneak, Mixmaster. SP's could be considered rush too.) My assessment in my guide was 70D/20E/10R so I guess his current placement is "close enough."

    Rook does have decent defense if the current Stone Wall is the official version. He's actually the char that I would think of as most schizophrenic. He has a 1 chip solidly in each corner and they're all fairly strong in their respective corners.
  26. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Turbo164 has a good explanation why DeGrey sits near the econ corner. Also, while he isn't strong at econ, he can make sure that his opponent is even worse at econ (No 2+ gems for you!), which makes DeGrey a strong econ character by direct comparison.

    I agree with vivafringe that Troq is much more an econ character than a rushdown character. He's getting bigger gems quickly and cycles through his deck fast to get them for big buys. The purple restriction on Giant Growth on the other hand makes it hard for him to buy the Combines needed for early rushdown. He can be good at rushdown, but I would place him closer to the econ corner as well. (Optimally in DeGrey's place, next to Setsuki, but at least in Gwen's place.)

    Onimaru isn't that good at econ in most banks, but he can crash three (!) 1 gems each cycle without ever buying another purple, so he can pose a decent rushdown threat.

    /end nitpicking on character placements. Please continue admiring the awesome triangle.
  27. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Excellent discussion. It sounds like most people either 'prefer' or are 'okay with' moving Troq down towards the Econ corner, so I have done that below. As someone who is just learning this game, I feel I can at least provide a newcomer's perspective. I think Viva did an awesome job with the guide in the OP which helps me understand that the triangle is NOT static, and that each character can be played different ways, especially given how the bank is setup.

    So, hopefully the master triangle is close enough to being done, and I can start working on the individual characters' triangles. Instead of clogging up this thread with 20 different triangles, here's what I'm gonna do:

    I'll send a PM to the creator of each guide from this page
    In each PM, I'll provide a link to an online image editor, which will allow each of you to move the character's chip to exactly where you think it should go. Once those images are sent back to me, I will create a new thread and compile all the results there.

    How does that sound?

    bbobjs, Proven, benjaminbeard and 7 others like this.
  28. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    This forum has a nice feature where you can invite multiple people to join a "conversation." Rather than a bunch of separate conversations, just have one big one with every creator included. That will probably save you some work, and also let moderators edit in images if they want.
  29. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    That sounds like a pretty damn good idea. I already sent out a couple conversations, but I'll take your advice and send out a full conversation to all the guides' creators.
  30. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Troq is a bit weird in that his early econ stinks, but his late econ can be top-tier. He'll be buying a [1] and Trap while Grave is snagging the first two Roundhouses.
  31. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Absolutely gorgeous. I may well use that last version as my desktop wallpaper for a bit.
  32. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    GeckoTH has 9 messages and 44 45 likes.

    S Tier for sure.
    two_eyes likes this.
  33. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    The purist in me is still a bit opposed to using the three "grown up" versions of Arg, Jaina and Setsuki, because every other depiction of the characters in Puzzle Strike uses their chibi version. Also, Sleb doesn't appear in Puzzle Strike. Would it be possible to just use the arrows with the text? Otherwise, I find these triangles just perfect.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  34. Inkstud

    Inkstud Patreon Supporter

    It would be ill as hell if there was a hidden character in puzzle strike, like if there were 3 Deathstrike Dragon character chips you could get if you preordered the game or something. Wouldn't have to balance them at all because he's intentionally S+ tier. So awesome. The art's already made, too, cause he's in Flash Duel.
  35. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Haha! *heads to Puzzle Chip Lab thread*
  36. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I already made a first pass at a coop mode vs the dragon in Puzzle Strike, over a year ago. After many tries, I could never get anyone to try it even one time. Anyway, probably better to finish Puzzle Strike development and move on to Yomi. This triangle graphic helps finish development, btw, so that's amazing. I guess we'll need 20+ copies of the triangle graphic in the strategy guide? hmm. I just realized that it will take up a lot of space on the page to have it show those huge arrows and the whole thing be big enough to see, when it's repeated 20 times. Or maybe it will be fine, I guess we'll need to put in a big version in the main section and 20 smaller versions and see how it looks.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  37. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    The colors are bright enough that a single black-edged chip should have quite a bit of contrast against the triangle - even if it's ridiculously small.
  38. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I get where you're coming from, but I think the arrow images contribute a lot to making the triangle interesting as well as tying together the concept of Jaina/Sets/Arg as representative of the three archetypes.

    As far as consistency is concerned... I think this point is getting a bit overemphasized. The character art in Puzzle strike is consistent because there's hardly any of it. That's not a bash; I absolutely love the chibi designs, and I've never felt the game was somehow lacking in images. That said, Yomi has multiple depictions of Grave doing various things. Puzzle Strike really has just one image of Grave being used repeatedly.
  39. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Swap Gloria and Persephone for newest iteration of Gloria. I'm going to pre-emptively guess that some people probably want her further in econ, but she does have 2 reactions so I think it's OK.
  40. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Swap Gloria & Persephone, got it. After receiving images of individual character triangles from each of the guides' creators, I crossed checked them with the master triangle diagram to see if there were any inconsistencies. The main one that stood out was that Menelker seems to be more Rushdown than Onimaru -- so I'm thinking of switching those two placements (I know Onimaru should be a bit closer to Econ as well, though it's probably not worth switching places with Geiger).

    The only other variable is the Gwen/DeGrey/Troq trio. There's already been some back and forth on this, and I know we won't reach 100% consensus. Gwen & DeGrey seem to be almost in the same place, with some people thinking that Gwen should be a little closer to Econ than DeGrey (and I know you might disagree, Aesa. lol). At least switching Gwen & DeGrey here would be more consistent with their individual triangles.
    Troq's also a bit of a wildcard still. Rabid feels that he has a very strong rushdown, as explained in his guide. Though he also has the ability to transition into an awesome econ late game. Perhaps Troq can have two places on his individual page, to show he can play both sides well, lol.
  41. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Still not sure I agree re: Menelker. Maybe Menelker and Oni are pretty close to the same spot, though?
  42. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    I think Onimaru is more rushdown than Menelker and the placement seems correct. Sending 2 gems with Double Slash really sets the opponent under pressure.

    Gwen / DeGrey / Troq is a tough nut. I still believe that Troq is primarily an econ character that just happens to play rushdown from time to time. Gwen is probably better at econ than at rushdown, too. And DeGrey is just hard to place.
  43. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Maybe it's my style, but I don't think Oni rushes well. Part of the problem with double slashing for pressure is it's always counterable and doesn't synergize well with combines, which are the real way to rush. There are some banks like Riskonade, Combinatorics, or fork + Ebb & Flow where Oni can rush well, but I don't think double slash is good for rushing except as a final kill shot when you're sure he can't counter. But again, I usually play Oni for the long game, so YMMV.
  44. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    It definitely isn't his primary strategy. So the placement nearer to the defense corner than to the rushdown corner is correct. Still, Double Slash is almost like Combine + Crash in a single chip. If you use it together with some real Combines and your initial Crash Gem, you can send quite a lot of gems during one cycle.

    But maybe I am just not familar enough with Menelker and don't see how he is great at rushing.
  45. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Lets talk about rushdown and character chips.

    First, Tempo - how soon the game can/will end:
    Jaina has Playing With Fire and Burning Vigor which both add ante to the game.
    Midori has Dragon From, which adds ante to the game.
    Rook has Strength of Earth, which adds ante to the game
    Troq has Giant Growth, which adds ante to the game.

    Second, Counter-Crash Avoidance - which maintains tempo:
    Jaina's Burning Vigor ignores CCs
    Midori's Dragon form prevents CCs
    Rook's Strength of Earth lets Rook build to uncounterable [4] gems fast
    Zane's Crash Potato can remove an opponent's ability to counter-crash
    Vendetta's Surgical Strike can deny an opponent their crash and peek to see if a crash will go through

    Third, Delivery - making sure it's not you who loses when the game ends:
    Jaina's Unstable Power is a DcG with a wounding drawback
    Zane's Crash Bomb is a DcG with crash-trashing drawback
    Oni, BBB, Val, and Menelker have pseudo-crashes that can send gems
    Geiger has R&D to fish purples

    So Jaina's rush is insane because she has all three components on just her character chips, Zane's rush is nuts when he can use Riskonade or something to ante and increase tempo, Midori's is strong when he can achieve the purple density for reliable delivery, Rook's falls apart when an opponent can use Mixmaster to disrupt his building [4]s. Val, Menelker and Oni have delivery only and need to use puzzle chips or panic time to increase tempo and also need to use Knockdown, discard chips or careful timing to avoid countercrashing.

    Troq has really great control of tempo with Giant Growth alone, and in his ideal game plan he'll thindeck enough to crash often for delivery, leaving only counter-crash avoidance. He can do that with a single combine by using Giant Growth to drop big gems from hand - thereby building fast or frequent [4]s in pile. Alternately, he can do by using his slimdeck with pig to try to time his crashes to avoid reactions. However in any less-than-ideal game, Troq is prevented from having the components other than tempo - ie he didn't get the early combine to build a [4]; his pile is too high to survive dropping big gems; his deck is bloated from wounding which doesn't let him crash for delivery; mixmaster doesn't let him leave big gems in pile; stolen purples means he doesn't want to pig for timing; ouch! trashed his early combine, etc etc.

    So when Troq is playing the game he wants to be playing, he's the #4 rusher out of the cast of 20. When he's forced to play the opponent's game, he can be not even in the top half of rushers (#11). At least in my experience, Troq gets to play his game more often than not - but we can reasonably debate how often that is in the abstract.

    tl;dr: Jaina, Rook and Midori all rush as well or better than Troq and should be as close or closer than Troq to the rushdown vertex - Zane, Vendetta, Val, Oni, BBB, Vendetta and Menelker might rush better or might rush worse than Troq in a given match, so it's at least acceptable for any of them to be as close or closer to rushdown than he is. Putting any of the other characters closer to the Rushdown corner than Troq does not accurately reflect their relative starting strengths.
  46. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    That is a very good summary. Thanks, rabid.

    Still, having no black or purple arrows and a buy restriction for purple orbs means that I play Troq (quite successfully) as a gem upgrading, deck cycling econ character first and as a rushdown character second. While adding 1-gems does improve the Tempo, Troq lacks in Counter-Crash Avoidance and Delivery. And those are both hindered by him not being very purple friendly. I use Giant Growth on bigger gems only when I am sure that I can win by crashing them (maybe after a Combine or two) this turn or the next. Dropping a big gem from your hand only to get it counter crashed decreases your money density for little gain. So you want to do it only when you know they can't be counter crashed, which isn't always that easy to achieve. Going for the "drop big gems to combine and crash them" clan happens far less than the "buy 6+ cost chips early and often" plan.

    His placement directly next to Setsuki may not be optimal though. Then again, I find it incredibly hard to rank Gwen, DeGrey and Troq in a straight line on the rushdown-econ edge of the triangle. No matter the order in which I place them, it seems off for at least one of them.
    GeckoTH likes this.
  47. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Just noticed something: Isn't the final version of Gloria much better at econ than Persephone and should therefore switch places with her (in the triangle)?

    Also, has someone found a better order for Gwen, DeGrey and Troq? Or do we just accept that there is no perfect order for them and leave them as they are?
  48. GeckoTH

    GeckoTH Member

    Yeah, the final version has Gloria and Perse switched, I just never posted it here yet, lol. Since there's no solid consensus on Gwen/DeGrey/Troq, I'm leaving them as they are.
  49. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    The image on the kickstarter page shows the old version (with Persephone more econ than Gloria), too. So I was asking. Good to hear that the switch was already made. Thanks, Gecko!

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